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65 New North Road,
Eden Terrace,
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38 min view

Breaking the silence on tradie mental health




So we'll just start straight away shall we. So the topic is breaking the silence on treating me to health. That's what we talk about. But housekeeping an ex-wife. So you get questions, you can talk them into the Q&A box. And we'll answer them as we go where the independent will all be recorded and sent to you at the end of the season. And your lines are muted just so for noise to keep it quiet cross but always give us feedback. So we can improve or new topics right. That's housekeeping done. But then I would like should can we have like 90 seconds on her trademark. That isn't who you are and why you're doing this might be more than happy to. Keep it to 90 seconds. So my name's Dan Allen, and I'm one of the co-founders of trademark. I am an ex chippy by trade. I was a carpenter for 10 years. And after losing one of my best Mates to suicide in 2015 which is my first experience with suicide. I suppose myself and co-founder Ed Ross had an idea that we thought we could use to get trades. And particularly blokes that anyone in general to kind of talk and open up a little bit more about their mental health. And we want to take a little bit more of a lighthearted approach to do so. So I tried, but tried much as a social enterprise work weight company by try these four trades. We make loud funky eye catching work where designed to start conversations about mental health. And as we say make an invisible issue impossible to ignore. So any anyone who wears a trade much it takes on a responsibility to act with ambition empathy show vulnerability and always taken nonjudgmental approach these conversations. But most importantly, when you were a trade match. It is about starting conversations. That's the key thing to remember is that it's not about style think conversation with the intention of fixing someone's problem is purely about opening up a dialogue and bringing down the barriers to talking about a topic that. Yeah But we haven't been that great at talking about in the past. And obviously you know I know it's an issue in New Zealand as well. You know just as big if not if not bigger than Australia. But you know it's we're targeting blokes because blokes are the hardest you know the hardest headed bastards are the lighting with construction being a male dominated industry. You know it's a really sensitive perfect fit. And if we can get blokes in there in blue collar sectors talk walking and women as well. Of course, hopefully we can lead by example for industries across the board you have 20% of all the citizens of New Zealand, and the construction industry is the highest by a long shot. So Yeah it's hard and hard. It's a hard gig. Well those of you who don't know me. So I'm doing Poland founder of legal software for that. I've been a plumber. All my life really and I've been self-employed since I was 22 and I've been through a couple of businesses before I was 30. I lost one to tax or the stress of having to pay the tax bill and then the second one I closed down just was the streets again of cash flow invoicing quiting and then the third one was most successful would got to 25 staff and two branches sales. That was a big business and focus software company 50 staff in two countries and customers order in the world. So I learnt a lot in that. And as I say, I had a couple of really hard businesses that it didn't go well. And at night too. They've gone very well. I went to a lot of top towns all along the way as well. So I'm quite passionate about this. I also lost a good friend along the way as well in the valleys of Fergus is to improve the lives of traders because when they get it wrong, they lose the marriages their businesses. And often their lives. That's a really big deal. So I also take this quite seriously as well. But I'd like to know what the approach of being were handed. So really it's good. It's great. Yeah well I mean, we take it. We want to take a lighthearted approach. But you know we don't take ourselves too seriously. But we take mental health very seriously. So it's always walking that line of never ever taking the piss out of this subject, but trying to make it more approachable because as you talk about you've been through some things that I can resonate with that. I've been through myself as well. And there is a lot to deal with both on and off the site and it's imperative that we can change the culture and the outlook and our attitudes as well. Yes I was going to start off on we'll just keep boxing on through. You know the time will run away was just acknowledging the struggles that slotting or going up in the like being in business that is my opinion. So being in business must cause you stress because if it was easy then everyone would do it. And you wouldn't have the ability to create a business right to solve a problem. So probably equal opportunity rights. So the bigger the problem, the bigger the opportunity the bigger the growth. But that growth is going to cause you anguish and grief like that's just it has to be that way because if it was easy someone else would have solved that problem. So the fact that there's something. And so means it's difficult and you're stepping up to solve the difficult problem. And because it's difficult. You're going to have to push and stretch yourself to get to solve that problem right. And so going through the motions of solving that problems is going to cause you anguish and grief and stress. And then that has to be pricey somehow what do you. Would you agree with that. Absolutely I would agree with that. You know I think a good mate of mine Glenn Azar does a lot in the mind in the mindset and mentoring space said to me earlier this year that humans are a growth animal. And if we're not growing, then where then we're slowly dying and it might be a grim way to put it. But I think what you're talking about with being a business. And the fact that problems presenting opportunities. Well the opportunity is to grow because that is what we are conditioned to do that all were built for. And it's what keeps us invigorated and alive. So Yeah, I think the opportunity to address those problems are definitely not a negative 1, it's a very exciting opportunity that you talk about something that I am something that we've embraced as well. And so so that goes. So goes to the mines are you talking about, which is exceeding that's going to be difficult. And that is OK. So rather than wishing it wasn't so high that wishing that the customers weren't difficult wishing staff well it's a difficult wishing the market wasn't so difficult. Instead of wishing was it always so hard this takes seasoning that it is going to be hard. But that's OK. That makes mixes. Absolutely I mean, I suppose it lends itself to the idea of taking ownership of oneself and in our own lives and whether that's our relationships, our financial situations, our businesses any of that. It's all about taking ownership of that. And knowing that we are a control of what we want to do and no one's going to force us to do anything that we don't want to do. We make our own choices. But Yeah acknowledging that struggle taking ownership is huge. But I also think in business is a struggle. But I hate the old cliche of what's your why. You know I understand you why it's important. But there is I suppose as this supposed isn't an element of unpacking sort of why you're doing what you're doing in a practical sense. The reason the money is not enough about the money is not there's not enough. We're back with you on that topic. Want to talk about. So in your experience talking to other trainees how many them. I've got no call that wrote that right mindset of saying, OK, it's difficult. And that's OK. And you know and just accepting it's going to be difficult. Because if you sit there is going to be difficult. Then it sets in motion. OK wanted to process. This somehow. It's legitimate that there's going to be the emotions and the anguish and grief to prices. So many people like this. How do you account Channing is trying to get people to accept you who embrace the challenges that they also embrace you look after yourself when talking to imperfect people about it. Yeah well I think one of the massive things in my own experience even before establishing trade. But with my time in the building industry as I said, I was a carpenter. I worked up and down the East coast of Australia and ended up in Brisbane. But the go through your apprenticeship and I should have an apprenticeship or a lesson from my perspective. You know it was a real struggle. And when I finished that apprenticeship I didn't I wasn't confident that I had the capacity or the ability to be a trader. You know automate it to make it in the big bad world of the trades looking around from carpenters and now it's a similar thing with plumbers as well. And a lot of other trades is that there's an unspoken expectation that you finish your apprenticeship, and you should know everything. And then, you know when you go from there, then as a chippy your next logical step is to master that craft and then become a builder. And that's and that's the. And that's the top of the chain right in the trades migration. But building becoming a builder or a business owner, of any kind. It's not a bit. It's being good at your craft. It's about all the other things that happen in the background about the finances, about the communication and the management and you do. You do not learn that as a. No one no one has ever learned that as a trainee. And I suppose that's something I guess I suppose a misconception or an attitude that really needs to be changed because it inhibits help seeking behavior. Yeah, I agree that all the time that I spent seven years in the wilderness trying to live in business when I need I should not work for myself. The three time I should have worked my way through the ranks of being an operations foreman right. And then in the Office of the office guy and learnt those awful skills. That was a dumb move going up to nearly this is a how does the big question, then I think we'll both give out our chip on this is so part of the struggle. Right but how do you actually call when you have been in the struggle for a long, long time years and years right. How do you actually define happiness. So that you know that something's not going right. So what would how would you define happiness. So for me you know I believe in the Buddhist philosophy of impermanence and everything is impermanent and so is happiness right. So for me you know happiness is a temporary moment in time where it is. Let me let me cut you off. How do you define joy in your life. Oh joy made things that put a smile on my face. If I'm not if I'm not smiling then you know I'm generally very happy go lucky guy and my body language tells it all. So anything even better. So we wake up and to the point I'm trying to get here is the people listening is I remember for a long, long time waking up every morning and not enjoying my life. I'm like totally going, Oh my. Here we go again. It's only on point when the day is difficult. It is when I wake up every day and I'm quite happy. And I have that internal sense of what's like what's good. Yeah Yeah like I like harmony harmony between mind, body, and spirit including you know everything your relationships, your Yo Yo Yo, what your work life, your professional life. You know if one thing is off it that is particularly affecting you. It's hard to ignore. It's hard to avoid. It's hard to take gather all those rest of those aspects of your life to try to make up for it. You may not think it was only just talking to my co-founder Ed about this idea of the body doesn't lie. And your emotions don't lie. And you can't fight the signs of unhappiness and you can't fight these different emotions that are the opposite of happy. You have to acknowledge those. And I suppose this is part of acknowledging the struggle and realizing that that's OK. It's OK to not be happy. It's totally fun because this might be another cliché but if you're happy all the time, then it's suddenly doesn't become happiness. That will lose its impact. But by acknowledging the struggles that we go through it gives perspective to the happiness. It allows us to stop and reflect and realize I don't feel like, you know what. I did. That's how I know I'm happy because I'm not feeling the way that I was when I was going through different kinds of struggles or battles. Yeah, I think that's a really good thing I remember many times cash flow issues, especially when you got a 20 point start in the Boeing Company and you wait maybe we can have 40k right. And it's hard to find. We have to we fully paid for wages you know. And so that black, white often think often felt is back of Silverstone that you carry around on these shoulders right in those weights of if we years in years you know don't do more to the business owners right. And that took me because you know because I like the analogy with energy like straights straight is like it's like stones in the basket. You know you got baskets and you just put one will sign on and say you don't know it, but after the years. You can't miss it signs that you don't notice. And I like that analogy. That's what happens. And so I think this for me is when you wake up and that when he calls over the course of a week, you'll go from happy to say it. Right you should go through that normal range of emotions. But you should kind of actually be individuation happy during the week. So if you're constantly flake and under there's actually a bad sign that there is something going on for you that you need to address why and how they we'll be identifying what is isn't the case right. You know what's actually causing you the biggest stresses in your life and acknowledging Oh OK that's having a major impact on me now. And it might be 10 things right. But you actually pick an object. Absolutely I couldn't agree more. And you know as like I myself have at times in my life did a really good job of trying to push things down and not acknowledge the things that I've been going through as recently as two months ago. And you know as you say those times I add up over time. Like as soon as you talked about that stone analogy it made me think of the show, the biggest loser. I think it's on TV anymore. But I always remember saying that point in time where the contestants had lost 50 kilos or whatever. And then they make them put that backpack back on. And then walk up the hill kind of right. They used to have. And it blows their mind. It's like in a physical sense. That's the best physical example of that, where you don't even realize. But yes I think it's all those little stones add up over time. And now if we don't nipped in the bud early it just snowballs and top bands. So that leads us into slide 2, which is recognizing the signs because I think it's actually a lot harder like now that I'm older right. Believe it or not, I'm not 30 terribly or not. I'm actually in my 40s if you know how to believe rock. And now looking back, I can now see that I had in my 20s and into the course of my 30s growing to grow 25 staff in two branches with 17 vehicles right. And I was growing software businesses when I had offices in Sydney, Melbourne Auckland and plumbing companies in Auckland why he was actually insane. And I can now see that I was you know I don't want what you would call us situational depressed and burned out. I know what you would call it. But still functioning, but never talked about it. But my goodness. Looking back at it now that was I don't know how I managed to get through all that makes sense. That's that's like the kind of example of like being caught in that hamster wheel. I just can't contain the continual momentum. Yeah and when you're in it, you can keep going. It's like you know Sam it's a functioning alcoholics are functioning any people who function with any kind of addiction or otherwise. Yeah and you can and your body gets really good at your mind anybody gets really good at what you're trying to do. And when you keep on going. You do get good at it. But the body will eventually something will eventually give right. Yeah So what do you what do you what would you say that you've seen over the. To a lot of people. Now what would be some classic signs that someone struggling, but they don't know they're struggling. Look, I think first off, I'll preface this by saying people usually do know when they're struggling. People always know that the body doesn't lie. People know when something's not right. But often it's the support networks around those individuals spot those signs first. You know things like changes in mood if you're sort of bringing sort of a negative mood home from work. And it's carrying through. I think it's fine to decompress at home with little signet with your significant other. But they also probably comes a point where when it becomes kind of too much. And it started to take a toll on your relationships. Well that's a big consideration. The challenge there is that often someone who is going through stuff that they don't necessarily want to hear you know that feedback from their partner. You know I mean, it's hard to at a time of the year. And yet sometimes it takes someone completely removed to say, hey, have you noticed that your mood or your attitude has been different to what it used to be. But other things, like motivation you know tiredness you know continual continual tiredness. I think it's OK for a short segment of time, a week or two weeks here on there. But when it starts to really drag on it really starts to kind of become the new normal. I think that's when you've got to really start to address those things and make positive changes. You know I mean, there's obviously different kinds of physical signs change engines sort of diet or maybe leaning on unhealthy coping mechanisms you know unhealthy unhealthy eating and leaning on the drink. You know it's a massive one it's so much readily available unhealthy coping mechanism. It does a really bloody good job of masking some stuff that's going on with. But doesn't that message is going to have to improve and shortly relate to that. And I'm not four years 100% I'm not. And not about to sit-in front of you or anyone else here and some preached it. I don't you know I don't enjoy being I'd like to have a good time. But I do know the difference now in myself of going home and cracking a couple of beers as a habit. And and keeping things like that in moderation and just to the wake and I do understand that. So but you know you can understand as much as you like, but it doesn't help sometimes until something in your life happens to help you make a positive change. The things that I think I notices and signs from myself for that people also know as the living kingpins like if you go to sleep, you're going to be around Sullivan you get off at 6:00 and you feel refreshed and things getting where you're going be at like 12 or one and you can't get to sleep. And then you do it again, a bit. That's that for me, that's a major Warning sign. I completely agree. And relate to that as well. I mean, there's those awful anxiety hours of the night. And the morning, you know those hours between sort of one or two and sort of 5:00 AM where time seems to stand still, but you just don't go to sleep. And that was the worst thing about that really. And it's very unfortunate. It's a self-perpetuating cycle because once you find yourself in that rhythm where you are losing sleep in those hours. You get up tired, you go to work tired, which obviously affects your performance. Yeah but then you start to get in a cycle of thinking God you start to expect it. I'm going to I'm going to be awake again, you know again. And you almost talk yourself into it. And again, it's just going to work in what potentially is a stressful environment tired. And then having that cycle just repeat itself is it's just awful. The other one would be if you're a normal male and your libido your libido just plummets. There is a classic Warning sign that gone. That's not healthy or accurate. You know so sleep libido. If those are missing that's really bad. Those are bad signs right. Good call. Yeah, very good call. They are. They are bad signs, but they're not again. They are impermanent. They can be changed and fast completely. But if you're wondering listening and you wondering, are am I. So those are two massive Warning signs, right like that's happening. You know if you'd be waking up for years just going, Oh here we go again. It's weird. It's like it's time to say we need to reach out to Dan. But also the other day and try and go. It's time, maybe we'll start looking at maybe there is a way I can ease this. And it might take a year a 2 run like it. I remember when we decide to solve our cash flow problems at work to ease my greatest stresses right. Trying to find that money. But it was just it was killing me. And it probably took nine months to fix cash right. But at least there was a plane. And so soon as that plane was in place and started getting better week by week. It got a little bit easier because at least there was an end coming if they make sense. Absolutely there's a lot to be said about putting a plan in place, which I'm sure we'll get to we'll get the right will jump on or jump on. This is the reason it's the long one. The longer you know for me because I think we might have a different viewpoint on this. But how about having meaningful conversations I might start off with an actual experience. I with what's the training. I was setting up in Kyrgyzstan and I was in his office doing. I'm doing a demo and the wife. I was playing up and he was so wound up was that Nixon was a 20 days. He's a really big unit little Sparky and he picked up the night route her and she slammed it against the wall and see and very little for a couple of swear words and you know, if I wasn't a trainee there was actually quite an intimidating moment with this dude just lost it. And so I've got that saying is your emotions are real, but they're often not valid. And so what I mean by that is it was just the Walt women deal. It's frustrating. I mean, there's no need to smash it into the wall. It's like when the apprentice picks the vein into a feeds in the end, he busts a feeds of whatever there is no reason to fly off the handle. It's frustrating. But what if it's just the beans. You know so usually emotions are real, but are they actually valid. Because a lot of the time, the reason you erupted is because of all this other stuff going on in the background for you right now. That was just a beat for your emotions to flat out. And so I think the first pass before, you can have a meaningful conversation with someone, you have to get a handle on your emotions and the way you communicate about them because there's not. So you say we're working together. Dan annual you know you often kind of work like say you're with often 10 or 15 minutes late to work. Right and then one day I just fly off the handle and lose it at you right. Like this because my emotions have built up over time that I'm feeling. You're taking advantage of me right valued or whatever. But I fly off the handle as you like. And you're like, wow, what the heck is going on here. So my emotions were this. They were real, but they were not valid right. So part of some of my foundation. Before you can have a meaningful conversation. It's not about blame transference of your emotions visible. It's about going. Why am I reacting so strongly to this beat. And then communicating that to the person you what it's like day when you come light. I feel that you don't recognize the connection. I makes this frame of always being here early. And I feel that you're taking advantage of it. And it's making me really angry. And so that's what made meaningful conversation start from owning your own emotions first. And that's really hard. I think responsibility and accountability for your emotions and not transferring is the star your partner as your work colleague or the customer. Right like this really at all. I think there's a lot to be said about that example because right there. That is something that. So many people can relate to right. That's that's happened on plenty of building sites over the years without a doubt. Yeah however it also brings into play. You communication styles. Right and if someone is rocking up later if something is occurring that as a business owner is getting on the go. You can nipped in the bud a lot sooner before it becomes an issue. And I suppose it's a good metaphor to all sorts of struggles that we go through that we're aware of. You know if you're aware of something like that that is going on. There's a better way to manage that earlier before it becomes a bigger problem isn't there because plenty of people have let little things like that go and go and go until one day it just bang up. And then there's two people that feel like shit. Right there's someone that's been yelled at and someone that's been enraged so hard that it will affect them for the rest of the day. So there's a lot to be said about communication styles and nipping things in the bud. I don't think for me that lines up from why we streets right. For me, it was cash flow. Right So I still know today. I can't pay the bills that triggers my stress thing. Right because it has big impact. So for me, that's a trigger point. In some ways, the trigger as well because we can't pay bills and either come knocking there's interest charges as being charged you can't the impact of theft is Messing with me. I know boy that impacts me. Right and so it's learning to say, well, because you women get stressed or isolated because they you've been for whatever reason triggers that thing. And that's and it's different for everybody right. And so if you're thinking about why there's no point just saying I'm stressed because there's no work. Well it is something guys love OK. I to go fishing right. Some guys love not being busy. So it's important to you say. I think it's important to examine why does this particular stress of no work or no caterer cause me such an issue. Because if you can examine why that causes such an issue. Maybe it can deal with that if you're not grounded. Well you can put a plan into it. OK There's plenty of that cash flow when it was a plan to get or into this. It's once again, it's identifying why those beads trigger your emotions right. That's then you can have a meaningful conversation with people because you want to find out why they have been with you to get so stressed. I think it's also interesting to add that often we are better at identifying the symptoms rather than the root cause. Right So Yeah Yeah. So there's plenty there's plenty of there's plenty of symptoms of stress and challenges right. And they are often easy to identify. But it's fixing that it's putting a Band-Aid over something often. We need to go deeper and it's a good thing to go deeper and sometimes it's not until you chat to someone we can always get caught in our little bubbles right. Running businesses or whatever you can get stuck in this little bubble and you need someone. We need an outside source, whether it's a mentor or business advisor someone like yourself Dan, who you can just shoot the breeze with and start to kind of unpack some of those things because we keep fixing symptoms. You know you just going to go around and round in circles and work yourself into it is certain is that saying it's a blind spot. There's a blind spot right. You can't put your own points. But if you wouldn't have it. So you actually do need a third person who can help you identify the blind spot. Right So this is the reason where we actually have a different viewpoint. So what call it the appropriate level of disclosure and I've got a couple of examples to prove a few points here. So one is let's say your husband, wife, and you got a couple of kids in marriages but rocky you don't sit down to the kids and tell the kids how difficult their relationship is. That's not appropriate right. Same as in a classroom with teachers. You know if you teach a struggling with whatever she doesn't tell the kids. She's struggling with that they're struggling with their life. And that's not appropriate. They've started. I think it's the same with your employees. It's not appropriate to disclose if you're really struggling with stress maybe depression relationship issues. I think it's not appropriate. I think it might be OK to sheer hey guys. I'm really busy, but top of the mind is not enough work not enough cash flow. That's causing a bit of stress. And this is the plan to improve it. And this one is how I need you to help me there's more. My opinion is people work for an employer, because I want the stability and the surety and I've found when there's too much disclosure stuff will often leave to work for something else. It's not so stressful. So I think there's appropriate level of disclosure. It's my viewpoint. What's your viewpoint on that. And I agree with you. I think there is an appropriate level of disclosure. But you know we have we've talked about this briefly before. And I and I sort of did have a challenge right. But it's definitely about meeting in the middle because I think about the first example of the kids whose parents are fighting you know the marriage isn't going well. You don't you don't go. You don't go and tell them you know you don't go and tell the kids all the gory details right. But I can tell you one thing because I've been there. The kids know that things aren't right. They know for sure they have heard the fighting. They can pick up body language. Kids are intuitive right. They get it. And so sometimes keeping those kids in the dark can do more harm than good. And you sure you don't need to go and explain to the kids all of the horrible details of the nature of the cheating and all that sort of stuff. But kids do know right. Same on a building site. I've worked for that many builders who have been struggling with stuff. And like I said earlier, the body doesn't lie. You when they're stressed when stress levels are up, when anxiety levels are high when things are flat when motivation is low everyone knows all the employees, all the staff know. And Yeah you can feel it. And the thing is I've worked in teams where the teams are really tight and they sort of become a bit like a family. Right and you are there for the boss and you want to help support you know and you want it because often when you're in a small business, you can see why the business. Is there. You can see who's running the business. You understand that it's a family business that there are kids involved in all that sort of stuff. And it's not because you've always got that leadership. So that's why I think I call it just because it's time. It's taken on. So appropriate levels of disclosure for sure, for sure. I agree. I agree. So you know, I think it's positive to open communication. I think it's positive. You know it can be positive to bring the troops together and let them know that maybe if you're feeling a little bit of a little bit more pressure at the moment. And it'd be great. You want to keep everyone in the loop and all that sort of stuff. But you don't need to give the guys all the gory details of there's no money. There's no money coming in. Not sure if you're getting paid this week. No I feel like if you let people know that you're not sure if they get paid that week, they get up and leave. I completely agree with you. Yes this will also I mean, over the years. I think I've been an example of 23 years like a long time. And so I'm late. It's OK to shear simple details, but you must have a plan in place. How you're going to fix it. The staff are fine if you say, yes, I've got pressure on professional and the working or come in this group is risk. But here's the plan. I'm going to place, then this will go and right. But you can't just. It does not go well you just tell staff you've got problems and no plan that really unsettles the team completely. Great Good good good. I'm glad we're on. That's good. Now so that leads to the next point. And building, someone you can talk to in general is going to be another business owner and generally as they say it's generally, if you're to get a mental they should generally be someone a little bit older than you who's actually going through what you've gone through. Right Yeah, I think. Yeah, no I completely agree. But I've also been in my own experience with regards to mentors is it's incredible. You know where you can find mentors and what a mentor actually becomes a mentor doesn't have to be an official relationship or anything like that. It can be someone that you look off to in the distance and admire the way they talk like Matthew McConaughey for example, I met great mentor but you know obviously Yeah. You know specific examples of like you're talking about. Yeah great to find someone else who can relate to what you're going through to give you real feedback real actionable actionable feedback. You know if things that they've been through in similar situations before. Well I think so I'm assuming this talk you had constant anguish and grief and stress in her the easiest way around that is you actually have to be deliberate about finding someone to help you. Absolutely because like measure me because I have a lot of people now because, I mean, I've pretty much been there, done that mean. And so therefore, I know how to help someone really, really quickly. And he just can't be talking to somebody who's been there, done that to get him to be deliberate about meeting them maybe we can be two weeks to just get what we do now. What do I do now. And I'm going to need your help. Like I'll tell him you need to go see your doctor because it's not for the business here. This is where you're at. Right but just telling. You need somebody to come to you. Like it was it would like a challenge. It's supporting. But challenging at the same time. That makes sense. Yeah like a bit of a devil's advocate a little bit. I didn't you know cause as I told you cause you stress. Yeah it's all cool. But here's the planes they help fix it right. Somebody is going to listen. But still push you to make a plane ticket to get out of the hole. Yeah well I mean, you don't want to be talking to someone who is going to enable you to sort of in a case, you really don't want someone who's going to say local it'll be all right. It'll be all right because that's not really useful advice right. Like when we're not trying to consult someone who is just lost you know had a death in the family something. It's about moving forward and putting actionable. You actions in place you know to improve your business actionable actions you got. That's a new one. It's a good one. So but I do think so this is now coming back to the next one's culture, which was this lead into it here. I do think a the boss, which is where you guys will get these meaningful conversations and 200% believe they should be trying to build a workplace where it's OK for their own teams the guys to actually come to the boss with the struggles and so how do you go about trying to encourage them. We'll just get the bosses here of science to think about how do I start voting a place where the trainees know they can come and talk to me. Yeah So I think it's an interesting one. You know because building businesses and construction businesses can be very fast paced and often, there's no time to stop and you know scratch yourself because you're trying to plan the next job and keep the money coming in and all that sort of stuff. Very, very common issue. But simple things like setting goal setting a weekly tool box meeting with the guys we can come in and let everyone you know give everyone. Our opportunity to talk about how things are going on site if they see sort of any issues anything that can be done better or anything like that opening up an open conversation with the guys on site once a week. The other thing that we're doing currently here, which never happened in any building sites at all, because everyone was making time for maybe a monthly one on one catch up with each of your staff. And it doesn't have to be anything long, long winded it can just be 15 minutes where you sit down and you get to know your staff try to connect with them try to understand who they are and where they want to go because often you'll have people working for you. And that's not their end goal. You know they might be what they might be working on something else in the background, or they might have aspirations to run their own business. Try Yeah. And I think trying to obtain that kind of information from some of you guys allows them to feel like you're understood. But you can also help each other and work together to achieve each other's goals both in your own business. And by enabling those individuals in your business to achieve their goals as well. Well this league doesn't do so in full, which is building a positive culture. And I have to say I reconfirm the first probably 15 years of my career from 20 to 30 early already 30 early 30s now is all about money extraction men. I was going by getting money from someone's wallet into my wallet. I was all about that. I'm like, I can comfortably say with a shadow of a doubt. I think that was probably the foundation of while a lot of it went wrong. And traded people employees really cause more than no, then as a person. You know there was nobody to work hours in and make me money. That was kind of thing that make sense. It upset. It makes sense. And it's a very common thing I believe. I think most of us have worked in a workplace where they have felt like that just a number. Yeah, and it's wrong. Like I didn't mean to be that way. We just think young youthful exuberance driven and didn't know any better than nobody better. And then nothing having kids helps keep the great. How good the kids you know and you've done a 180. Now for a 360. Let me check back with you with. There's always a 180 and yes another connection of my life is a quality of life equals the quality of your relationships and how that was separating personal and financial goals. So the business is harnessing focus on delivering property owner outcomes. I call it customer outcomes in stopping outcome. So that's super happy. Like super happy staff often do a great job for the customer within a state and they pay you well. And like this like this happy cycle right. You fix that. And the cash flow comes in. And then from that cash flow that's being used to fund your account your personal lifestyle. And I made that very clear distinction between the two. So your business life is all about just an awesome engagement of your customers and your staff are happy and engaged and do you know that that just flows and in separating out what you want personally from the business of the two are not linked. But it's hardening. It is it's really hard to sort of separate the two because when you're a business owner, you know where does business stop and life start. Yeah, I think we can often get that this is something that I've been reflecting on a lot because you know I'm not different to anyone else. We run a mental health focused social enterprise and a mental health support service. But they're both they're both businesses and I'm pretty fresh in business. You automate. So I try it. We're doing a good thing on one hand, but we're also navigating that business journey on the other. So you know this. There's a whole lot of challenges that come from it. Yeah because what have you seen in a couple of years. Right Yeah Yeah. So Yeah tried that's been gone since the 15th of March 2013. When we laid it on the news. I mean, it's amazing. I was shocked by how you like what have you seen or experienced is how do you go from at the moment. So you will know you're stressed. So this is no judgment right. Because when your stress got cash flow issues workers you want even. It's so easy to be so internally focused just getting through every day. It's totally easy to ignore. You use your staff and your customers right. Them in this way. There's when you go into UK right you, and you just can't cope. So how do you start getting out of your cave. Because once you start engaging your team you're really here. They take Walgreens off you. But how did he. He was not this meaning I can give you a real life example of myself. Yeah just such as just two months ago you know I haven't had I haven't had a proper Holiday Inn. When I say proper I mean, a period of three weeks if three or four weeks of good travel completely downtime right. So I've been feeling the sides of burning out. We've been burning the candle at both ends for ages and as the business owner, I have been right. I've recognized the signs. Now that I haven't been operating at full capacity. Yeah but you know game face. Right put the game based on Cape rocking up. But for me, it's probably got to a point where the physical signs started coming out. My body language is down you know I was probably pretty absent, you know as a face in this business on our social media. It just became blatantly obvious and keeping an open line of communication with HR business partner up to the point where I went to say my day day I went to see my GP and open up the conversation. And I made a plan. I made a plan of what I was going to do to move forward. You know for myself, because if as the business owner if you're not operating at full capacity. Well no one else is either right. So and so and it filters down it filters through the team. And it's so important to keep that positive you know that that positivity in that culture sort of really vibing because everyone everyone vibes off that overall vibe as well. Yeah, that's a good point. If you're not feeling you've got the capacity to actually think about your staff and customers you need some help. You think I told you. I see Gary talking to your GP is always a great place to start really a good place to start a really good start. Yeah, I highly, highly recommend if anyone doesn't have a GPU know you make a relationship, make a relationship with the GP. Because a great way to bring down the barriers and let you know what's available out there. And let you know that some of the things that you're feeling and going through are completely normal when they can refer you quite quickly. Unit GP yes so first when you're not feeling that you need to go see someone and get a plan and then the say sequence. He can boost and capacity. So you can start thinking about your staff right is the comments on this one. What have you seen. I would say, I'm still low on sympathy for people like I could say it's just never I Keir but I can't do it in reality, it's just not in me. But what I got very good at doing is putting someone else in charge of that. And so that's the way I was took their stress off me of feeling bad for never actually doing it because I will always prioritize a task over a person just who I am right now. Well it shouldn't do, but I can't stop it. However I've now put people in charge of actually caring about people. So it happens. And that's how I sold it for me. And people are amazingly 100% And I mean like. I don't think when you say you put tasks in front of people. I don't think I think that's fine. You know what I mean. We've all got we've all got a natural personality type. You know some of us are for myself and my business father Ed, we've had personality testing done through an external Hi jar you know that person. And Ed and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Ed's the thruster organizer and task orientated yes and I am the input the information gathering you're the extrovert the empathetic, compassionate side of things. And he's really good at the stuff that he does in his heart that is. And I'm really good at this stuff that I do on myself suppose it is. But we can't do both. You can't do both. And know I think to your point, you can't be someone that you're not right. And ensure certain behaviors might not be everyone's cup of tea or if you're not empathetic you know, whatever. But you can put a system or another person in place to be able to do that. And that's business isn't because you can't do everything you will burn out. But I do. I've seen the benefits of employee being bringing in free counseling sessions. My goodness. I'm amazed people do not abuse a man, but they use it when it's there. And if they use it. It's because I needed it. Yeah and I think that's and I think that's extremely beneficial. And I gather that you've seen that saying the rewards of that. And you're right. You know putting something like that in place. People generally don't abuse that kind of stuff. You it's hard enough in constructing NGOs or we're getting drunk driving convictions or losing your freedom and getting heartbroken. I mean, the other guys that use it. This oil company shell. It's amazing. Right I've got to move on. Tired of making up tricks on animals. You know with some engaging and I'm prioritizing well-being I think is a big deal. This is all layering up. There's a plan though, because all dying out because looking after yourself, is this is it. Think to yourself. Pretty much like you Stole it. Yeah right actually take it through it. Look, I think it's amazing when you feel tired and stressful you might feel like your body doesn't have the capacity to do anymore. But it's amazing what a bit of physical exercise does four does for your body and does for your physical well-being and your emotional well-being. A bit of focused exercise and deliberately making a decision to do that, you focused exercise. It is extremely beneficial. You know anybody gets good at what you train it to get good at I mentioned that earlier. So you know you know that you don't realize the hormones from streets and obviously adrenaline and cortisol, which is negative in the body because all those relief releases endorphins and Saratoga which are the counteraction to those to. If you don't do the endorphins into your retirement. How are you going to get rid of the coolness on adrenaline. So you're going to get the chemical nothing really bad woman. You got to exercise 100% anyway. And we've also got in there looking after your body. It's not just physically making deliberate choices about your nutrition. It's nothing but positive. What if whatever your diet whatever your preferred diet is whether you are a carnival or whether you're a vegetarian, a vegan whatever it is you like. It really doesn't matter as long as you're making a deliberate decision and a choice to do that because you are empowering yourself by taking control of what you're putting in your body. You know you're not looking for quick fixes and all that sort of stuff. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah you're making a decision. Being cognizant of your emotions made emotional intelligence is something that we talk about a lot. Understanding it's not just depression and happiness. There's a whole spectrum of emotions in between there things like happiness fun love, joy on the positive side. But you know stress fatigue tiredness anxiety things like you mentioned earlier, things like libido understanding all of these signs both physical and emotional that your body sends you knowing what they are, even being able to put a name to that emotion. You can start to identify patterns. And it's really good. We are one of our big changes is around emotional intelligence allowing trying to encourage people to be more in tune with the way they feel and why. And then plan to reduce stress again, making a conscious decision to do to refuel your tank or to do the things that put a point on the home scoreboard you know every day, every time that you make a conscious decision to do something positive for yourself, even though there's a lot of easy options out there that may be a quick fix to COVID in different scenarios making a conscious decision to do something positive for yourself is good. And it is the best way to plan to reduce stress. You know you really empower yourself. I'm a huge advocate for conscious decisions conscious decisions for those listening. Like if you're a business owner, it will take one to two years to remove with the other stresses to get in the processes and policies. And when it comes down from one business to the pressure of cash flow profit staff management enough work. I mean, those are pretty standard. But they can. That will take at least a year or more, it takes about two years to that you focus on it properly for them all to go away to be really manageable, like it's quite the journey. Once you get there. It's kind of amazing right. So there is the plan to reduce the stress will be quiet. There's no quick fix right. If you've got a business, you cannot turn it around in seven days. And it's all just gone peachy right. It's so pricey as men to turn them around. But there's a plan Michael, it's amazing how much better you feel that you've got a plan because you identified your emotions right. Why And if you're looking after your body. You've got through some Brazilians to two axes to stick in it for another couple of years to fix it. It's amazing when you put that plan in place. But a little bit of what a little bit of momentum does. 8 estate is a little bit of momentum and you just see a little glimmer of light and change and suddenly the world is your oyster. So this is our last thought. We've got 8 minutes. So what do I call this. I talked about you, the day is being cognizant that you deal with stress in this business. But basically an amazing because imagine being in a third world country with no opportunity like, at least in Australia. I mean, you could start a business, you can get work. You can actually improve your lot in life. It's amazing. It's amazing with actually got the ability to do that yet stressful. But my goodness. Thank goodness we've actually got something to lose. And so I approach it from that point of is just the gift that there's opportunity like. So it's just that I wake up like, thank goodness like an opportunity. I'm always thinking for that. And because of that, when you have problems to solve your stretching growing because imagine having none of that. That's how I think Yeah and I completely agree. And I think it's worth noting that there's never ever going to be a point in time where you can rest on your laurels because everything's great. You know what I mean. Once you get things I believe once you get things in line and your business once you put positive plans and actions in place, you're going to get to a point where like us you know, hey, there's no point where we're satisfied with what we've done. There's always going to be the next thing. And the next thing. And when you get to a point where you can start to take on new challenges or new problems as you say, they become super exciting. Yes, it's super exciting. So you know it's cold. There's no there's no point where you've done. I don't think now is fine because once you've got over the cash flow profit work issue because it's a process of Nutting out how this all came together when she worked that out, then life becomes quite enjoyable when you can take advantage of the opportunity because how to work it. But you need help to get through that you need you need mentorships and you look because yourself personally you relations and you know you need business help business mentors to get you through. Those are all big deals. So we've got six minutes to go. And I think it's not like the final point, I'm going make it is acknowledged that I acknowledge that and make a lifelong commitment to sharing what's going on with you to your loved and trusted ones. And so might start making a conscious decision to acknowledge that it's not about you. But I will probably be in business until the day I die. System this most businesspeople conical that prison any right. And so you got to keep pushing for price risk your life making a commitment to see what you're going through with your loved ones right. And tell them in this Bay Area and this impact it's having on me. But make that commitment is not sharing what's going on for you. Yeah, I completely agree. I think the value of your relationships can be measured by the amount of information that you're willing to disclose within those relationships. And I think it can be a sure sign to understand exactly what level you are on within those relationships have you got Mates that at a surface level that you're not willing to share stuff with. You know, maybe they're not as deep relationship as you thought. But those relationships with people that you can disclose everything to and really talk truly to about those are the relationships worth nourishing worth keeping on to and valuing and growing up in the closest thing I've only got one person. This is my brother that I have met with. There's not one person I fully fully can trust to be open to only 10 or 20 or one or two. You don't need me to share with. I completely agree. And yet. I'm undecided. My brother for me is yes. Is it rocks. Yeah it's but it's awesome to know that. And identify that that is the person that you can confide in. Yeah, good job. And so is with some rat. Was that lossless like. Hopefully if you're listening. I'm hoping we're making some impact. How are you thinking the cigarette slide. When the cracks start to appear. Who can be on with you. Can you talk to me like you know you guys exist for this reason right. Absolutely we do. So Yeah, I think it's worth noting that we've talked about a couple of things like reaching out to a JP for certain things reaching out to mentors and business advisors for other things. But there's a combination of different types of support. And help out there for different scenarios and sometimes you need all of those different combinations for different fact. But tax is the charity arm that was established by trade, but with a goal of removing the physical and financial barriers that exist preventing anyone from accessing professional mental health support. So we want to be able to provide a positive experience when it's needed. And be there for as long as anyone needs to talk. So Yeah x exists. Simple it's a text or call service where working on programs to take it open a video as well. We provide access to mental health professionals if, but a great team of psychologists up in the office. And we knocked up at the back there. And it is available for anyone, whether or whether you're in construction or whether you're a supporter of someone who might be going through some stuff. Often family and loved ones bear the brunt of the issues that people are going through, and you don't know how to help that person. So please feel free to reach out for anyone who's listening. Yet text or call. There are 4 or head of the tax. Tax Check out some of the awesome articles that our psychologist write. Yeah feel free to save the number pass it on to anyone you need and understand that if you don't think anyone else is ever there we certainly are. So Yeah, feel free to call and. Yeah happy aren't. I don't think there was. If you're feeling sad. It will get down for more than two weeks in a row. If the sign right is the sign two weeks or more a sign that you really thinks it's nothing. It's even if you're curious just have a look. Yeah hey, I've been there myself. Like I said, I've just gone insane. My GPA. I'm just going to get a mental health plan, and we are actively seeking out a psychologist for myself to use because I know the benefits of it. And I can't continue to talk about it If I don't practice what I preach. So exactly. And Shane has been very nice. So it's pretty common. Thanks guys. It's been great. And sitting on your chair and give me some good things to think about and work on. Geez you're welcome. Thanks for attending and listening and commenting. I do hope we may have some value to everyone. I do hope we haven't been preaching. Sadly I haven't. I don't feel that we'll be preaching right. We just be shooting. We were and want to be like right. It's really tough being the designers related. Is it is very tough. And acknowledging that struggle Israel because we're all in it together. And no one's ever done it alone. So there's no point starting doing a line. Now No no Thanks. Thanks Eleanor. As you see things we see are angry interesting Ferguson and webinars on the terminals with mental health. So I'm not going to let you know there's not many comments. You're welcome. Greetings somebody else. And things, and they've been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. I was really busy. Thanks for giving out you an air time for us. Never mind. Not at all. It's great. It's great to connect. I hope we added some value to your community. Yeah, I love what you guys are doing love the mission and you know with super stoked to be able to help spread the word across the ditch because you know although we don't love each other. You know at certain times out all these keywords we're with. But certainly family. So I think they're kind of busy. No no Thanks. Thanks so much for having me. My pleasure. Thank you all for listening in. Well we will talk to other. Absolutely absolutely. Thank you so much. Thanks Thanks for listening customers in the documents they. 

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